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What do you think raids should be like in Anthem?

Stelyrian

New Member
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#1
Personally, I like the idea of 4-8 player raids that put emphasis on highly intricate mechanics, heavy teamwork and communication rather than the traditional 20+ player raids in most MMOs. This would allow the devs to put more of a focus on level design in a sense that the boss isn't the only focus in the arena. You would have to take into account other mechanics in between each damage phase that rely on quick timing and coordination with your team to ensure you make it to each phase of the boss. Time would also be something you would have to take into account such that the boss doesn't enrage. With this being said, I also hope the mechanics aren't "easy". In my eyes, the raids should be something you should have to sit down and put time into to complete, given they're most likely going to be the highest level activities in the game. I would honestly be fine with putting aside a number of hours to complete the raids so long as they're rewarding enough, which brings me to my next point. Whether someone feels rewarded at the end of a raid shouldn't only rely on if they got some great loot, they should feel rewarded just by virtue of completion. If your raid is enough of a challenge to overcome then reward or excitement should come from completing it alone, regardless of what you earned. But if your raid is a cake walk, you most likely won't have that feeling of joy after the first time completing it. I'll use Destiny as an example; the first time I completed the King's Fall raid I felt nothing but pure joy, not because I got some good loot, but because I had overcome a challenge that took me an entire week to complete.

Anyway, I would like to hear the communities thoughts on these topics, let me know what you guys think.
 

Matthew

Administrator
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#2
A big problem with raids, for me personally, is how boring they are. Sometimes I find raiding to be a chore, because usually it's just kill boss, kill boss, kill boss. I know that's the point, but sometimes I dread having to raid. That's why I hate WOW's raids. I really want something innovative to make them more fun. I would love cooperative puzzles, in the heat of battle, where everyone in the team has to work together. That might be difficult in 20+ person raids, but 4-8 not so much.
 

Stelyrian

New Member
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1
#3
A big problem with raids, for me personally, is how boring they are. Sometimes I find raiding to be a chore, because usually it's just kill boss, kill boss, kill boss. I know that's the point, but sometimes I dread having to raid. That's why I hate WOW's raids. I really want something innovative to make them more fun. I would love cooperative puzzles, in the heat of battle, where everyone in the team has to work together. That might be difficult in 20+ person raids, but 4-8 not so much.
I agree, I really don't think large scale WoW style raids would fit well in a game like Anthem. Just out of curiosity though, what would you think of Destiny style raids in Anthem? Allot of people seem to be hoping for Destiny style raids, which are probably the closest resemblance to what I was referring to in my original post.
 
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#4
Quote from Stelyrian:
"Just out of curiosity though, what would you think of Destiny style raids in Anthem? Allot of people seem to be hoping for Destiny style raids, which are probably the closest resemblance to what I was referring to in my original post"

I hope that the raids in Anthem do not resemble the raids in Destiny. This would diminish Strongholds (raids)in Anthem and only add to the thought that Anthem is a clone. Which from all the information in front of us it isn't. Information from the trailers show that there may be Runes hidden within the Stronghold or the process of going through the Stronghold. If there is any resemblance to DAI there may be puzzles that a specific talent of a javelin would unlock. Bottom line is that BioWare needs to make a Stronghold their own, not a nock- off of another game. It is my understanding that a Stronghold may take up to 45min. to complete, and that a Stronghold once cleared would stay that way for a period of time, then reset with a different enemy. What ever the case Strongholds in Anthem needs to be unique so a squad of 4 would find the challenge and the need to change load outs to Facilitate what ever new threat that spawned within a previous Stronghold. As Mark Waner said in a interview, (paraphrasing) there are always the same three guys waiting for you over that hill everytime you go there, Anthem aims to change that.
 

Stelyrian

New Member
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1
#5
Quote from Stelyrian:
"Just out of curiosity though, what would you think of Destiny style raids in Anthem? Allot of people seem to be hoping for Destiny style raids, which are probably the closest resemblance to what I was referring to in my original post"

I hope that the raids in Anthem do not resemble the raids in Destiny. This would diminish Strongholds (raids)in Anthem and only add to the thought that Anthem is a clone. Which from all the information in front of us it isn't. Information from the trailers show that there may be Runes hidden within the Stronghold or the process of going through the Stronghold. If there is any resemblance to DAI there may be puzzles that a specific talent of a javelin would unlock. Bottom line is that BioWare needs to make a Stronghold their own, not a nock- off of another game. It is my understanding that a Stronghold may take up to 45min. to complete, and that a Stronghold once cleared would stay that way for a period of time, then reset with a different enemy. What ever the case Strongholds in Anthem needs to be unique so a squad of 4 would find the challenge and the need to change load outs to Facilitate what ever new threat that spawned within a previous Stronghold. As Mark Waner said in a interview, (paraphrasing) there are always the same three guys waiting for you over that hill everytime you go there, Anthem aims to change that.
I understand what you mean, but I think you're confusing Strongholds with raids, as there seems to be a distinction. Strongholds, if i'm not mistaken, are meant to be Anthem's equivalent to dungeons. Whereas Anthem's equivalent to raids seem to be an entirely different activity, which most likely will play the role as the "real" end-game, for lack of a better word. I also want to make a distinction, when I use Destiny as a comparison, I don't mean a knock off version of what Destiny have already done. Rather I use Destiny as an example of a game employing a raid model that puts emphasis on teamwork, intricate mechanics and coordination.
 
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#6
Your correct in the difference between Strongholds and endgame/raids. Removing Destiny as an example, for me, brings the discussion back to your question, will BioWare employ teamwork, intricate mechanics and coordination in their gameplay for squad members. BioWare has demonstrated in past titles that strategy was a major part of team play (single player). This became more apparent in their co-op gameplay in those titles. It would seem that in their demos they have raised the level of teamwork within their Strongholds and even in Freeplay. The design that each javelin brings to each encounter and that we have four javelins to pilot, increase the coordination between team members on any given Stronghold or the endgame. The concept of 3+1 in any give encounter opens up the mechanics to more disign possiblities. This then increases better forethought for squad members of what javelin to use and the coordination between members during any encounter. I think this was demonstrated in a gameplay demo with two BioWare exes. not coordinating with one another in Freeplay that ended badly.
It would seem that outside of Ft. Tarsis coordination between squad members is escential for survival wheither in Freeplay, Stronghold, or the endgame. Picking teammates may become a big deal..
 

Stelyrian

New Member
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0
1
#7
Your correct in the difference between Strongholds and endgame/raids. Removing Destiny as an example, for me, brings the discussion back to your question, will BioWare employ teamwork, intricate mechanics and coordination in their gameplay for squad members. BioWare has demonstrated in past titles that strategy was a major part of team play (single player). This became more apparent in their co-op gameplay in those titles. It would seem that in their demos they have raised the level of teamwork within their Strongholds and even in Freeplay. The design that each javelin brings to each encounter and that we have four javelins to pilot, increase the coordination between team members on any given Stronghold or the endgame. The concept of 3+1 in any give encounter opens up the mechanics to more disign possiblities. This then increases better forethought for squad members of what javelin to use and the coordination between members during any encounter. I think this was demonstrated in a gameplay demo with two BioWare exes. not coordinating with one another in Freeplay that ended badly.
It would seem that outside of Ft. Tarsis coordination between squad members is escential for survival wheither in Freeplay, Stronghold, or the endgame. Picking teammates may become a big deal..
Awesome, thank you for the information. Though i'm curious, what are your personal opinions on this model? Iv'e heard some mixed opinions, and generally would like to further understand what the communities thoughts are. Personally, I really like where it seems to be headed.
 
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#8
Ok, first forget my grammar.... (I was missing this kind of interesting talks)

In my opinion, the problem with the typical RAID is the amount of player involved on that activity. For solo players RAID quickly became something unreachable for them. If you make an 8 man instance, full of story, puzzle and lore content, considering the fact that, only a very small percent of the player base will actually be able to finish it, you are undoubtedly making a serious level design mistake.

Forgive me for putting Destiny back into the conversation, but take a look at the evolution of their "Raids". Recently, with Forsaken they introduce something like a "soloable RAID" called the "Shattered Throne", of course you need a very good group to finish it, and a lot of patience. But I was able to finish it with my brother (a 2 man team) and a back then, we did not even have the maximum light level. I was able, to finish an Endgame activity without a full team. I was able to TRULY enjoy my game for the FIRS TIME....

On the contrary, In Destiny 1, as solo player and after 40 tries, I was able to finish ONLY Crota's RAID. Once I understand all the tricks, I finished it several times. But It was perfectly clear to me, that only a very, very small percent of the population was able to finish a single incursion.

Having said that, if you spend month designing the best RAID in the world that only the 2% of the population will be able to complete it, then you are making a mistake, and wasting resources. Of course, if you say something like that, on a normal forum you will be immediately assaulted by those privileged with a full team. But the hard fact is that, the majority of the players, will never be able to past the entrance of a RAID.

So:
Why you make a HARD END GAME CONTENT in the first place?
I understand that an Endgame activity should reward the best loot in the game. Because you are rewarding the full team effort.
But blocking THAT activity for the rest of US is pointless.

So... what would be the best approach in this matter?
Well in my opinion, HARD ENDGAME CONTENT should be part of the game. But, as a developer, you could at least create, a scaled down duplicate of the RAID level, with all the full team mechanics disabled.
By doing that, you would allow solo players to enjoy the instance, collect the lore and explore and admire all the artistic work across the whole RAID. Scale down the rewards of course, and launch the 1 man version of that "RAID" a few months later if you must. But DO NOT block that content for to 98% of the playerbase.

Anthem has and interesting feature, you can change the "difficulty" of the game, something new in the multiplayer genre. You can literally scale down the enemies to allow everyone to enjoy the game. So those hardcore gamer how spend 24 hours a day playing and, and those who can only play an hour per week, could enjoy the game on the same terms. Well extrapolate the same thing into the RAIDS, let allow everyone to enjoy the content they had paid for it.

That way, everyone would be able to play and enjoy the game.
 
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#9
Martin Quote:
"By doing that, you would allow solo players to enjoy the instance, collect the lore and explore and admire all the artistic work across the whole RAID."

This is an issue that I hope BioWare addresses, the resources that were put into a Stronghold or Endgame content. This has been a concern for me for a long time. I have heard from developers that they want players to enjoy the worlds they create, but if your rushing through 95% of the content to get to the end of said instance you are not enjoying that artistic contribution to the game. To put it simply why not have a mimi game within any Stronghold, or Endgame. Each instance should be filled with lore, resources, puzzles, traps, and other interesting things to do except just shoot things.

We have a squad of four (4), why not use the coordination of the squad and problem solving skills of squad members to solve puzzles to access hidden chambers of loot or resources. Clearing a chamber of enemies is the first step, solving a puzzle or some type of squad coordinated effort to obtain the entrance to the next chamber or level. Each javelin has a unique ability why not use their ability to solve a problem to open a loot side chamber.

My point is why not use the resources that were dedicated to this instance to fully realize the player experience within that instance. At the end the squad or single player if scaled down as Martin has suggested, would feel that this was a total experience. Not a rush to the end to defeat the boss and the loot grab. Any squad would have the option to ignore a lot of this content for the thrill of the boss fight and high end loot on any given instance. it would not be mandatory, at least a majority of it.

One encouraging aspect from BioWare was that they had highlighted the discovery of a Rune in the squads journey through the Stonghold that may suggest that other interesting items, lore, history may be hidden within. The bottom line is that the entire instance to be filled with coordination and teamwork form the squad to complete the task, or at least an option to do so. Even for the singleplayer.
 

Stelyrian

New Member
5
0
1
#10
Ok, first forget my grammar.... (I was missing this kind of interesting talks)

In my opinion, the problem with the typical RAID is the amount of player involved on that activity. For solo players RAID quickly became something unreachable for them. If you make an 8 man instance, full of story, puzzle and lore content, considering the fact that, only a very small percent of the player base will actually be able to finish it, you are undoubtedly making a serious level design mistake.

Forgive me for putting Destiny back into the conversation, but take a look at the evolution of their "Raids". Recently, with Forsaken they introduce something like a "soloable RAID" called the "Shattered Throne", of course you need a very good group to finish it, and a lot of patience. But I was able to finish it with my brother (a 2 man team) and a back then, we did not even have the maximum light level. I was able, to finish an Endgame activity without a full team. I was able to TRULY enjoy my game for the FIRS TIME....

On the contrary, In Destiny 1, as solo player and after 40 tries, I was able to finish ONLY Crota's RAID. Once I understand all the tricks, I finished it several times. But It was perfectly clear to me, that only a very, very small percent of the population was able to finish a single incursion.

Having said that, if you spend month designing the best RAID in the world that only the 2% of the population will be able to complete it, then you are making a mistake, and wasting resources. Of course, if you say something like that, on a normal forum you will be immediately assaulted by those privileged with a full team. But the hard fact is that, the majority of the players, will never be able to past the entrance of a RAID.

So:
Why you make a HARD END GAME CONTENT in the first place?
I understand that an Endgame activity should reward the best loot in the game. Because you are rewarding the full team effort.
But blocking THAT activity for the rest of US is pointless.

So... what would be the best approach in this matter?
Well in my opinion, HARD ENDGAME CONTENT should be part of the game. But, as a developer, you could at least create, a scaled down duplicate of the RAID level, with all the full team mechanics disabled.
By doing that, you would allow solo players to enjoy the instance, collect the lore and explore and admire all the artistic work across the whole RAID. Scale down the rewards of course, and launch the 1 man version of that "RAID" a few months later if you must. But DO NOT block that content for to 98% of the playerbase.

Anthem has and interesting feature, you can change the "difficulty" of the game, something new in the multiplayer genre. You can literally scale down the enemies to allow everyone to enjoy the game. So those hardcore gamer how spend 24 hours a day playing and, and those who can only play an hour per week, could enjoy the game on the same terms. Well extrapolate the same thing into the RAIDS, let allow everyone to enjoy the content they had paid for it.

That way, everyone would be able to play and enjoy the game.
I agree with you, this is why I think endgame should have much more variety than other games we've seen within the same genre. Though referring to your example regarding Crota's End in Destiny 1; I think that raid is a good example of end game content accessible to most types of players. The raid itself was quite solo friendly; and at times was easier to complete solo compared to a team, provided you ran the correct setup. With that being said, I wouldn't want every raid in Anthem to be possible to do completely solo; but it would be cool to see some pretty challenging end game activities that are accessible to players that may prefer to play solo rather than in a team.
 
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#11
Everything I have read and seen from the developers has said that 4 man content is the maximum number of players in any content at release which will all be able to matchmake into. Which I think will necessitate a slightly less puzzle/mechanic heavy content to more straightforward content. However there are always ways to make fights more interesting without tuning them toward "elitist" players. I honestly hope people enjoy the game for what it is and the gameplay loop is as good as the story to keep a solid playerbase around.
 

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